http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?267719
I faced a similar situation a couple of years ago, when I wrote a column in the Times of India on the long-term cultural consequences of the anti-Muslim pogrom in 2002. It was a sharp attack on Gujarat's changing middle-class culture. I was served summons for inciting communal hatred. I had to take anticipatory bail from the Supreme Court and get the police summons quashed. The case, however, goes on, even though the Supreme Court, while granting me anticipatory bail, said it found nothing objectionable in the article. The editor of the Ahmedabad edition of the Times of India was less fortunate. He was charged with sedition.
I shall be surprised if the charges of sedition against Arundhati are taken to their logical conclusion. Geelani is already facing more than a hundred cases of sedition, so one more probably won't make a difference to him. Indeed, the government may fall back on time-tested traditions and negotiate with recalcitrant opponents through income-tax laws. People never fully trusted the income-tax officials; now they will distrust them the way they distrust the CBI.
In the meanwhile, we have made fools of ourselves in front of the whole world. All this because some protesters demonstrated at the meeting that Arundhati and Geelani addressed! Yet, I hear from those who were present at the meeting that Geelani did not once utter the word "secession", and even went so far as to give a soft definition of azadi. By all accounts, he put forward a rather moderate agenda. Was it his way of sending a message to the government of India? How much of it was cold-blooded public relations, how much a clever play with political possibilities in Kashmir?
We shall never know, just because most of those who pass as politicians today and our knowledge-proof babus have proved themselves incapable of understanding the subtleties of public communication. They are not literate enough to know what role free speech and free press play in an open society, not only in keeping the society open but also in serious statecraft. In the meanwhile, it has become dangerous to demand a more compassionate and humane society, for that has come to mean a serious criticism of contemporary India and those who run it. Such criticism is being redefined as anti-national and divisive. In the case of Arundhati, it is of course the BJP that is setting the pace of public debate and pleading for censorship. But I must hasten to add that the Congress looks unwilling to lose the race. It seems keen to prove that it is more nationalist than the BJP.
It is the hearts and minds of the new middle class—those who have come up in the last two decades from almost nowhere and are middle class by virtue of having money rather than middle-class values—that both parties are after. This new middle class wants to give meaning to their hollow life through a violent, nineteenth-century version of European-style 'nationalism'. They want to prove—to others as well as to themselves—that they have a stake in the system, that they have arrived. They are afraid that the slightest erosion in the legitimacy of their particularly nasty version of nationalism will jeopardise their new-found social status and political clout. They are willing to fight to the last Indian for the glory of Mother India as long as they themselves are not conscripted to do so and they can see, safely and comfortably in their drawing rooms, Indian nationalism unfolding the way a violent Bombay film unfolds on their television screens.
Hence the bitterness and intolerance, not only towards Arundhati Roy, but also towards all other spoilsports who defy the mainstream imagination of India and its nationalism. Even Gandhians fighting for their cause non-violently are not spared. Himangshu Kumar's ashram at Dantewada has been destroyed not by the Maoists but by the police. I would have thought that writers and artists would be exempt from censorship in an open society. As we well know, they are not. The CPI(M) and the Congress ganged up to shut up Taslima Nasreen by saying she was not an Indian. As though if you are a non-Indian in India, your rights don't have to be governed by the Constitution of India!
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There are times when a national consensus is neither possible nor desirable. The best one can do is to contain the violence and negotiate with those who act out their dissent. That may not be easy in the case of the Kashmiris because their trust in us is now close to zero. Psychologically speaking, the Kashmiris are already outside India and will remain there for at least two generations. The random killings, rapes, torture and the other innovative atrocities have brutalised their society and turned them into a traumatised lot. If you think this is too harsh, read between the lines of psychotherapist Shobhna Sonpar's report on Kashmir.
What is it about the culture of Indian politics today that it allows us to opt for a version of nationalism that is so brutal, self-certain and chauvinist? Have we been so brutalised ourselves that we have become totally numb to the suffering around us? What is this concept of Indian unity that forces us to support police atrocities and torture? How can a democratic government, knowing fully what its police, paramilitary and army is capable of doing, resist signing the international covenant on torture? How can we, sixty years after independence, countenance encounter deaths? Could these practices have survived so long and become institutionalised if we had a large enough section of India's much-vaunted middle class fully sensitive to the demands of democracy?
The answers to these questions are not pleasant. We know things could not have come to this pass if those who are or should be alert to these issues in the intelligentsia, media, artistic community had done their job. Here I think the changing nature of the Indian middle class has not been a help.
We are proud of our democracy—the consensus on democracy still survives in India—but unaware of a crucial paradox in which we are caught. The democratic process has created a new middle class, a large section of which is not adequately socialised to democratic norms in sectors not vital to the survival of democratic politics but vital to creativity and innovativeness in an open society. The thoughtless, non-self-critical ultra-nationalism, intolerant of anyone opposed to the mainstream public opinion, is shared neither by the poor nor the more settled middle class. Ordinary Indians, accustomed as they are to living with mind-boggling diversity, social and cultural, have no problem with political diversity. Neither does the settled middle class.
Bankim Chandra Chattopadhyay, for instance, wrote an essay savaging the middle class in mid-nineteenth century. We had to study this in our school and it has remained a prescribed text in Bengal for more than a century. Today you cannot introduce such a text in much of India without probably precipitating a political controversy and demands for censorship.
Recently, at a lecture organised by the Information Commission of India, I claimed that the future of censorship and surveillance in India was very bright. It's not only the government that loves it but a very large section of middle-class India too would like to silence writers, artists, playwrights, scholars and thinkers they do not like. In their attempt to become a globalised middle class, they are willing to change their dress, food habits and language but not their love for censorship. We should thank our stars that there still are people in our midst—editors, political activists, NGOs, lawyers and judges—to whom freedom of speech is neither a value peripheral to the real concerns of Indian democracy nor a bourgeois virtue but a clue to our survival as a civilised society.
Filed In:
Authors: Ashis Nandy
People: Arundhati Roy|Narendra Modi
Tags: Democracy|Free Speech|Media|Moral Police|Censorship
Section: National|Books
Subsection: Opinion
Places: J&K|Gujarat
Authors: Ashis Nandy
People: Arundhati Roy|Narendra Modi
Tags: Democracy|Free Speech|Media|Moral Police|Censorship
Section: National|Books
Subsection: Opinion
Places: J&K|Gujarat
| Oct 30, 2010 01:16 PM 1 | Mr Nandy, Arundhati Roy jumped the gun and questioned the piety of the Indian Nation and the country reciprocated by showing pity on her by not pressing the sedition charges. Doesn't that offer a ray of hope? |
| Oct 30, 2010 01:45 PM 2 | "PEN really is a Funny Tool because with same set of fingers it earns one a 'CROWN' for 'Midnight Children' and 'FROWN' for 'Satanic Verses'." |
| Oct 30, 2010 01:46 PM 3 | "Sensationalism is the first resort for pseudo-intellectuals" I wish there was some one speaking about hurting sentiments of millions of Indians. If someone was to state a disturbing historic fact about Islamic invasion of India, for example the simple fact that thousands of Hindu women burned themselves before being violated by Muslim conquerers, he would be universally condemned for hurting minority feelings but when the people being hurt are just "Indians" there is no condemnation coming from any quarters. It is a shame that government is ratifying such anti-national statements made from a government sponsored platform. A failed actress who wrote a piece of "shock value" literature to become famous does not have the credential to be even on any platform discussing something so close to the heart of millions. She is an opportunist who saw an opportunity to get back into limelight and her attitude towards general Indian sentiments closely resembles the attitude of Rhytt Butler at the end of "Gone with the wind". |
| Oct 30, 2010 02:06 PM 4 | Ashis Nandy says, "The future of censorship and surveillance in India was very bright. It's not only the government that loves it but a very large section of middle-class India too would like to silence writers, artists, playwrights, scholars and thinkers they do not like." This is a strongly worded article, but it is essentially truthful as well as insightful. Speaking of Arundhati, he rightly observes, "What she has said is simultaneously a plea for a more democratic India and a more humane future for Indians." |
| Oct 30, 2010 02:18 PM 5 | Thinkers are not always good writers. Writers are not always thinkers with a vision. Proportions of thinker-writers and writer-thinkers can increase if they care less for mundane rewards that are awarded when writings and speeches attract good audiences, regardless of the thought inputs. Arundhati Roy can increase the thought and the vision qualities of her writings and speeches. |
| Oct 30, 2010 02:31 PM 6 | well, it is a credit to india, that at least one public intellectual who can succinctly identify the "thoughtless, non-self-critical ultra-nationalism, intolerant of anyone opposed to the mainstream public opinion" that passes for vaunted patriotism in the noveau indian middles class now. Thanks for than Mr. Nandy. The problem is that anyone with internet access ( and these are mostly the newly minted middle class with their lopsided vainglorious indian - dare I day, Hindu, since i already see a comment with 'islamic invasion etc.. ' in it - ultra-nationalism and holier-than-thou attitude, who can brook no dissent to their viewpoint, and the devil take the hindmost.. these being the tribals and the poor and the underprivileged. It is a crass materialistic demographic - this middle calss - that is animated mostly by the recent affluence, and the newly-found voice over the internet & corporate sponsored media, where they can anonymously savage all comers ( ad-hominem attacks being the most common), and claim via lies and hyperbole, a consensual truth that is just their truth and not of those on the ground suffering the indignities and humiliation, the rape and violence. Obviously, for our comfortably ensconsced nationalistic middle class, it is a small price - that the anonymous underprivileged, have to pay in terms of those rapes and violence, so that they may claim to be a rising superpower, a dignified nation among nations. Why does this even have to surprise anyone, I am at a loss to understand. Over the last 30-40 years, dalit & tribal womens have been raped, and their men jailed at a rate thats s abhorrent for any nation to call itself civilized. From the last year thhat that statistice are available (2001), 'Every hour two Dalits are assaulted; every day three Dalit women are raped, two Dalits are murdered, and two Dalit homes are torched. ' That was 10 years back- i am not sure those statistics changed by any great extent in these past 10 years. It is just so tragicomic to see the vain posturing and positioning of this emerging (indian/hindu) middle class (upper-caste) identity; and the muzzling of dissent, hiding of any wrinkles in the aura, all are of a piece with the neurosis and anxieties of this newly empowered middle class, that is negotiating and claiming that identuty, and for whom any dissent is anathema. Thanks ,Mr. Nandy for this piece. One still has hope. |
| Oct 30, 2010 03:13 PM 7 | Ashis Nandy the same Nandy who couple of years back said that Hindu Gujarati Society has become the Society of killers. He is a leftist,Communist and anti Gujarati-anti Hindu . |
| Oct 30, 2010 04:06 PM 8 | "those who have come up in the last two decades from almost nowhere and are middle class by virtue of having money rather than middle-class values"- ASHIS NANDY Please dont put down the new middle class, they achieved this "bad" money by working diligently, unlike the "morally superior" elites (who have this condescension)who grew by scratching the backs of each other in the so called people-centric state controlled economy. |
| Oct 30, 2010 04:10 PM 9 | It is quite right We cannot allow of the complete speech freedoms. Otherwise what will happen for Salman Rushdie? Will He also be allowed to open mouth and say anti-Islam things like he wants to do? No. So somewhat censor we have to be doing. Only, not for Kashmir. That was never part of India. So let Arundhati say that. What she is saying, is correct. You must let correct things be said. |
| Oct 30, 2010 04:31 PM 10 | To Mr. Anupam Sinha: When you speak of Hindu women burning themselves to avoid being raped by Muslim "invaders", a number of issues illustrating your intellectual incompetence come to mind. a) Historical fact: Cite me a number, a ROUNDED number of the number of women that committed jauhar. We're talking three Rajput kingdoms, that is three forts maximum 300 women? Oh, not to mention the morality of one fat lazy king having hundreds of wives, and then you have the gall to call Muslims polygamists. Why don't we analyse systematic patterns of rape within Hindu society that, more troublingly, continue to this day? How about the all-too common sexual exploitation of lower caste women in Hindu village structures? b) You, and most of the censors spoken of in this article, comprise a class of urban and semi-urban middle class Indians who are largely upper caste and completely isolated from the real tragedies because you never experienced them, or because you participated in inflicting them. No one cares what Muslim invaders did hundreds of years ago. There was no UNIFIED MUSLIM INVASION. Most of the Muslim invaders were fighting MUSLIM INDIAN RULERS, like the Delhi Sultanate, the Mughals, etc. It worries me, this growing vocal uneducated mass, yes you speak English, but you have never reasoned. You would fail a college moral reasoning course, because you cannot undertake a logical argument devoid of prejudice and idiotic fallacies. Adults really should not spout the kind of drivel that this class does. A lot of poorer, illiterate people would put this demographic to shame. I blame this on the increasing number of people having access to the internet and to televisions and telephones. Telecommunications gives them the illusion that their views are of some import, and that someone needs to hear them. |
| Oct 30, 2010 06:26 PM 11 | Siddhant Singh Marriage has been romanticised only in the last few centuries at most. Marriage was always the socially acceptable form of prostitution. The MAN took full care of the WOMAN, who in turn forfeited her liberties with other men, making it possible to ensure that the children belonged to HIM. That explains why some males could support a few 'wives'. Incidentally, even in this romantic age of 'marriage', 40% of 'rape convictions' have been studied and researched world-wide, to be FALSE. Then what about the highly covered 'rape' of thousands of women in the ancient past. There could be 1000's of perfectly social explanations, that the anti-male groups will NOT disclose. WAKE UP, MALES! SPEAK UP! |
| Oct 30, 2010 06:29 PM 12 | brilliant as most of the time. will b grateful if hindus of jammu n buddhists of laddakh r also counted as kashmiries in the similer manner as their muslim brothers in your future discourses.somehow they r conspicuously absent always everywhere while discussing kashmir.should they not get mentioned for being in minority there or for voting to rightwingers |
| Oct 30, 2010 08:41 PM 13 | I am from the same much hated "middle class". Not sure though if I am in "virtue of having money" or "value" category. My great grandfather was considered rich man in that area, but grandfather became poor fighting court case against British. My father and mother somehow pulled us back to the middle class. I wonder, isn't middle class an economical term? I suppose if anyone is in middle class, he/she must be by "virtue of having money". "Value", etc follows. I don't care a bit of what Ms Roy says, or if she is in jail or outside. She is provocative and she provokes many people. I am all in favor of everyone's right to say anything. But I do care what Mr Nandy says. I am appalled. How bad is this writing: "We know ....should be alert to these issues in the intelligentsia, media, artistic community had done their job", read "we (Mr Nandy, etc) failed" "Here I think the changing nature of the Indian middle class has not been a help", read "you (Santosh, etc) were not helpful". Still, "We, the intelligentsia" (Mr Nandy, etc) are good and shouldn't be questioned. But "You, the middle class" (Santosh, etc), are the bad boys. It says, "We are proud of our democracy". I wonder if Mr Nandy is merciful enough to grand this savage middle class like me to be included in that exclusive club of his "we"? It refers to psychotherapist Shobhna Sonpar's work. Rather than questioning platform like Outlook for not promoting that genuine discussion on this, but backing the hocks; it vents all anger on defenseless middle-class and it defends the out-shouters. This argument is gaining ground in our intelligentsia that if you do not like someone's book; write another book to answer that. It is like saying; sing like Lata to prove your point against her. Where can I get that skill? I just have a vote, and I will vote to counter that. But ah, then I am a bad-bad middle-class. What they say democracy survives on middle-class. India is still a democracy anyways. The bad-guy middle class is not that bad after-all. It is so nationalistic view to see this problem of freedom, etc. in such a way. This global phenomenon should not be analyzed in such a narrow way. |
| Oct 30, 2010 08:55 PM 14 | If the booker winning intellectual of her caliber uses such over the top, vulgar and extreme language, and just about makes sure that any truth ( which i'm sure there is plenty) in her statements is eclipsed by their biting hyperbole and bias, is it fair to expect more sensitivity from the newly minted, ill informed middle-class? Asking for sedition charges is ridiculous and dangerous in extreme, but opposing her in her own language is not by any stretch an assault on the freedom of expression. If anything she is ending up doing only harm to the causes she is presumably espousing. |
| Oct 30, 2010 09:04 PM 15 | Hi Sheetal, if you listen to Roy's speech she talks precisely of that.. "That there should be justice for all".. and in terms of the future of Kashmir along with the Hindus od Jammu and the buddhists of Ladakh.. Unfortunately, all the mainstream media aired were 3 lines from the speech |
| Oct 30, 2010 09:06 PM 16 | It was almost depressing reading the comments to this brilliant article... absolutely agree with Siddhanth Singh and Mohan Mani |
| Oct 30, 2010 09:21 PM 17 | Nandy omits to mention all the good work done by the security forces, in preventing infiltration, in fighting insurgents, arresting criminals. To him, it's all torture, rape and disappearances. Without any qualification. Why is Siddhant Singh speaking in defense of the awful Moslem invaders, of all people? There is data to suggest that millions( possibly 80 million) people died as a result of the Islamic invasions and rule. It was brute military force from the beginning. |
| Oct 30, 2010 09:26 PM 18 | "Yet, I hear from those who were present at the meeting that Geelani did not once utter the word "secession", and even went so far as to give a soft definition of azadi. By all accounts, he put forward a rather moderate agenda." This is almost laughable. If the likes of Geelani ever achieve political power, his definition of sedition will be far more severe than anything this Indian state and its middle class( that Nandy is excoriating). Anyone who opposes Islam, Sharia, questions Islamic history, says anything remotely critical of the Prophet Mohammed, opposes the burkha, believes in plurality of religion and plurality of salvation, will be seen as seditious. |
| Oct 30, 2010 09:53 PM 19 | I would have thought that writers and artists would be exempt from censorship in an open society. ------------------------------------------------ Why? Are you guys above constitution or law? Are you guys animals who doesn't come within the law of land? Or just because you some one is internationally recognized through A or B awards in past, you have all the powers to speak as a dead from neck up? Remember one thing, Nelson Mandela & Obama and many others in past have won Nobel prize (they attributed a lot to Mahatma Gandhi) while the Mahatma himself was found not deserving for this kind of award. So don't waste time defending someone who just has bookers prize under her belt, they all to belong to some country and they do need to speak keeping in the view the larger interests of the country. |
| Oct 31, 2010 12:08 AM 20 | Mr nandy, there ae many people in Jammu, Ladakh and Kashmir who are against succession. You can check up with Ladakhis, with Jammuites, with Kashmiri Hindus, with many Kashmiri Muslims. I request you to hold public meetings on thier behalf in Srinagar, along with Arundhatiji and Gautam Navlakha ji. If you have the moral courage, you can even carry placards on behalf of these poor terrorised voice of Indian supporters through the streets of Srinagar. Of course if you are scared I can give you a host of excuses which you can use. Ashis Nandy : Arre baba.. I am an academic. Anyway I have my schedule full till 2019 Gautam Navlakha: Ha ha ... do you think I am stupid enough to get a bullet in my gut. I want publicity... not maut... Arundhati : Ha... Pro government protests are so boring. I am anti establishment na.. Which pro government dharna evr got international coverage??? |
| Oct 31, 2010 12:26 AM 21 | why cant someone publish on what can be written/said/published which doesnt come under sedition or what comes under sedition. there is one official secrets act which evry govt servant from soldier to safai karamchary signs and under this one can be jailed for 3 to 7 years for writing a letters to the editor. btw 2 interesting news items last week. in tamilnadu an indl who killed his wife surrendered after 16 years (he has made up a story of her running away after throwing her inside a well)as he cannot get over his wife sa face coming evry day crying to leave her. second life sentence for a retd IG in kerala for an fake encounter which happened 40 years ago when the retd constable came out in 98 and told the truth as guilt consciousness hurt him.beware the fake encounter specialists and their supporters(most of those baying for arundhati r from this group)as middle class has more guilt consciousness than the two extremes. |
| Oct 31, 2010 01:40 AM 22 | Well what do you expect when the decadent elite and the slave classes have formed an alliance against the Educated middle class ? It is the educated middle class that is the guardian of democracy and of civil society. The elite only know how to exploit, and the slave classes know how to get exploited. These two classes need to be banished from our political space. Voting rights and electoral participation need to be restricted to the Educated middle class. This is the only way that India can dig its way out of this morass. |
| Oct 31, 2010 02:36 AM 23 | There is data to suggest that millions( possibly 300 million) people died as a result of the Hindu invasions and rule. It was brute military force from the beginning. The Caste System in Hinduism was alone responsible for half those deaths and the rest due to wars. Indians have been getting screwed for 3000 years by all these invasions. |
| Oct 31, 2010 02:38 AM 24 | --"It was almost depressing reading the comments to this brilliant article... " Ruchi ... i think you accidentally stumbled upon a Hindutva forum. Despite Outlooks socio-political leanings, its forums are infested by Sanghis. |
| Oct 31, 2010 02:42 AM 25 | --"Voting rights and electoral participation need to be restricted to the Educated middle class." If 'educated' meddle-classes have your propensity for authoritarianism, not even ram can save us ! |
| Oct 31, 2010 02:58 AM 26 | Liberals have all of the sudden found virtue in political dissent and against violence. In kashmir their is no political dissent, their is only azaadi in the air. Any political expression that supports kashmir's accession with India has been killed, miamed and raped. Any political entity that has worked to strengthen kashmir's association with India has been killed by the gun, terrorised and made to flee the valley. This so called right to self to determination has veered entirely towards an extreme idea, where anybody who is against this expression has been subdued to submission, by political propoganda, violence and ethnic cleansing. The so called kashmiri struggle is tainted with violence, extremism, religious fundamentalism and an illiberal formulation of azaadi. So people who are parroting this idea need to stop and look at what they are supporting and propogating |
| Oct 31, 2010 09:35 AM 27 | >>This new middle class wants to give meaning to their hollow life through a violent, nineteenth-century version of European-style 'nationalism'. Sure boss!! Ashis Nandy is the Tolstoy of literature, the Einstein of science, the Voltaire of liberals, Neruda of poets, Picasso of painters!! He leads a divine meaningful life hiding in some caves when Salman Rudshdie, Naipaul are vilified, when Taslima Nasreen is hounded out of this cointry, when barbaric slaves of Arabian camel chops of somebody's hands.... Nandy with his infinite wisdom knows very well the fact, that writing a single line about the real victims of Kashmir, the Kashmiri Hindu pandits who are driven out of the valley, whose women were raped by the barbaric supporters of Geelani, would cost him dearly. He is well aware of the fact a college lecturer from Kerala had to lose his hands for something slightly and remotely disrespectful to the Al Qaida faith. So, Wisdom Nandy cleverly remain silent when Taslima Nasreen is hounded out of India, when she is attacked in Hyderabad while making a simple speech. So, Ashis Nandy is full of Wisdom, he leads a meaningful life. And the hollow middle class doesn't dance to the tunes of Wisdom Nandy, the hollow middle class do care about what happens to Nasreen, Rushdie and they refuse to forget the mass murders of Kashmiri Pandits and the rape of thousands of their women. Stupid middle class, bow down to Wisdom Nandy, the prophet of our time and touch his feet. |
| Oct 31, 2010 09:41 AM 28 | >> Geelani is already facing more than a hundred cases of sedition, so one more probably won't make a difference to him. One more feather to his cap, Geelani has yet to pay 1.73 crore income tax !! |
| Oct 31, 2010 09:51 AM 29 | >> I shall be surprised if the charges of sedition against Arundhati are taken to their logical conclusion. Sure boss!! And the hollow middle class will be surprised if wisdom Nandy ever dare to speak for Taslima Nasreen and Salman Rushdie. >> Indeed, the government may fall back on time-tested traditions and negotiate with recalcitrant opponents through income-tax laws. People never fully trusted the income-tax officials; now they will distrust them the way they distrust the cbi. Well, it seems for Wisdom Nandy everything with Income tax dept. Only when they dare to ask Geelani to pay 1.73 crore, all the hell start breaking loose. So, Geelani is indeed a holy cow for the likes of Mr Wisdom Nandy. Mr Wisdom Nandy, may I let you know that Geelani is purest form of Mullah or seventh century Arabian mentality. Ask him about his views on Burqa and you will surely know the truth. But Mr Wisdom, you surely know the safest questions to keep your head and hands in tact. |
| Oct 31, 2010 09:58 AM 30 | Going by Wisdom Nandy's logic: The mob who disrupt the Prophet Geelani and the Goddess' speech surely deserve contempt, they are fascist. But the mob pelting stones on Indian Army on Kashmir, burning police station and schools in Kashmir, deserve our respect as that democratic, that is spontaneous, that is freedom of expression. |
| Oct 31, 2010 10:07 AM 31 | >>We shall never know, just because most of those who pass as politicians today and our knowledge-proof babus have proved themselves incapable of understanding the subtleties of public communication. They are not literate enough to know what role free speech and free press play in an open society, not only in keeping the society open but also in serious statecraft. Politicians, knowledge-proof babus, and surely the middle class with your despicable hollow lives, bow down to Mr Wisdom Nandy and learn lessons on public communication from him. Learn from him to know what role free speech and free press play in an open society. And my humble request to Govt of India, please ask Wisdom Nandy to solve the problem of Kashmir. Mr Wisdom will solve it in a minute. |
| Oct 31, 2010 10:15 AM 32 | >>It is the hearts and minds of the new middle class—those who have come up in the last two decades from almost nowhere and are middle class by virtue of having money rather than middle-class values----- The new middle class has come from no where, what a crime !!!! They had to come from somewhere !!!! Look at our Wisdom Nandy, the prophet and the Voltaire. We all know where he has come from. He has come straight from the paradise, or shall I say from Jannat. Behold, the prophet will define the middle class values for you, the noble path to attain middle class values. |
| Oct 31, 2010 10:20 AM 33 | Going by Wisdom Nandy's logic: The mob who disrupt the Prophet Geelani and the Goddess' speech surely deserve contempt, they are fascist. But the mob pelting stones on Indian Army on Kashmir, burning police station and schools in Kashmir, deserve our respect as that democratic, that is spontaneous, that is freedom of expression. ---------------------------------------- Let's wait for verdict, which will be out in short while once the protectors of right to speech (irresepective of platform and what is said) show up on this forum.. you will be branded as Sanghi/ fascist (just like many others). Welcome to the club. * I personally think, its the middle class (they are not after money by hook or crook as views by intellectuals in their blogs on theis magazine) which acts as glue between the rich and poor, secular/communal... without them, the gap will be too big to be filled in. |
| Oct 31, 2010 10:51 AM 34 | Arundhati Roy is well-known as a Khan Market revolutionary. I simply do not understand why either should anybody waste time on her or why should she be censored; nor why Ashis Nandy should think of writing anything so important on this occasion. |
| Oct 31, 2010 11:21 AM 35 | Arundhati looks terribly sex starved,leading her to negative thoughts one after the other.As a Catholic the right place for her is a nunnery,visiting seminaries to satisfy herself. |
| Oct 31, 2010 11:47 AM 36 | Mr Nandy its not the question of new middle class or old middle class. In any society there will be some extreme elements while majority will be moderate and may seem silent but this silent majority expresses itself where ever democratic process provides them an opportunity to do so.Indian people have proved it time and again despite the pseudo intellectuals and journalists trying to divide Indians into religions, regions, castes and classes.Democracy provides everyone an opportunity to express their view or get their grievances redressed.However, it does not mean that nation will sit quiet if some of its own try to dis integrate the country. |
| Oct 31, 2010 12:06 PM 37 | Sir, may I also humbly say, journalists are writers, artists & journalists are equally responsible for this. Such support of "anti-sedition" comes very selectively. The community which is supposed to defend this is often times split & also caught napping... |
| Oct 31, 2010 12:22 PM 38 | --"Arundhati looks terribly sex starved,leading her to negative thoughts one after the other." And this is what passes for informed debate on this forum. What a hoot ! |
| Oct 31, 2010 12:57 PM 39 | Is it not IRONY, that Outlook, talks about censoring Arundhati ... ... while it censores, edits and blocks its members comments on that SAME very page! WAKE UP, MALES! SPEAK UP! |
| Oct 31, 2010 02:27 PM 40 | Who is Ashis Nandy? |
| Oct 31, 2010 06:37 PM 41 | "It was almost depressing reading the comments to this brilliant article... absolutely agree with Siddhanth Singh and Mohan Mani Ruchi" Why is it brilliant, and how do you refute the comments to the article, apart from saying they are depressing? That's no argument at all. Nandy acts like some pompous, arrogant know-it-all, thinking he is far superior to the average middle class Indian. |
| Oct 31, 2010 06:52 PM 42 | ..that 300 million died.." Actually, there is no figure set forth. It is likely that if you add up all the deaths in war in India from 3000 BCE to the advent of Islamic invasions, the number will be large, but 300 million? At any rate, you cannot equate battles from within, between Indic kingdoms and with Indic motives, with the mass killing and mass vandalism of the Islamic invaders. Just as one must not equate Aztec internecine conflicts, with the horrors of the Spanish Conquistadors. |
| Oct 31, 2010 08:25 PM 43 | Ashis Nandy is right when he says this in tehelka. http://www.tehelka.c...061110The_judges.asp *** This brings me to an issue that is becoming increasingly important in our society. Today, the changing middle-class culture is narrowing the choice of the Hindus to a binary one: a Hindu can now opt for either secularism or Hindutva. The other alternatives are disappearing. Both the secularists and the Hindutva brigade are thrilled about this. For the politically alert, however, this is a tragedy. *** The more "secular buffoons" call everyone who differs with them as "Sanghis" the better. :-) |
| Oct 31, 2010 10:48 PM 44 | All the sickulars are born in leftist kolkata including ashis nandi, shoma chowdhary etc. oh kolakatans please lock your left leaning sickulars back there and let them not escape and start there well practiced one sided marxist arguemnts which they have learned and excelled in kolkata. Ashis nandi writes It is the hearts and minds of the new middle class—those who have come up in the last two decades from almost nowhere and are middle class by virtue of having money rather than middle-class values—that both parties are after. This new middle class wants to give meaning to their hollow life through a violent, nineteenth-century version of European-style 'nationalism'. Dear ashis nandy please provide details of your rank in JEE, CAT, GMAT, GRE or are you so called parody of intellectual from liberal arts(boohoohoo) . The so called middle class has not arrived from any where but were always there by virtue of their education and hard work. They may have earned some money but they are certainly better qualified and intelligent than you. Because of internet people like you have become irrelevant because better opinions are now available from hard working middle class who now use internet to make comment after they finished work of the day and use spare time. Earlier same set was ignored. You must be appreciating NDTV and tehelka who only allow favorable opinion and suppress the pest called middle class. Talk about censorship. And since when himanshu kumar has become gandhian? When NHRC caught his lies he started berating NHRC before that he welcomed them. he is a naxal overground pretending to be a gandhian. His lies are well documented. |
| Nov 01, 2010 06:13 AM 45 | I would not call Ashish Nandy names. He seems like an intelligent and perceptive writer. http://www.tehelka.c...Ne300509the_hour.asp "But criminality and arrogance is not the only reason for the Left Front's rout in Bengal and Kerala. The trouble is, their kind of Leninism has not survived anywhere in the world except in Cuba, Bengal and Kerala. Chandan Mitra would add tartly, "And the People's Republic of Jawaharlal Nehru University." This ideology has such an Edwardian ring to it, I am surprised it even captivated so many in India. The point is, this sense of a vanguard of the proletariat, this whole position is protected by middle-class activists. This is why despite 32 years in power, the truth is that the kind of revolutionary changes in social structures that have swept across India have not even touched West Bengal. Everything there is still controlled by the upper castes, and in some senses, it is the most casteist society in India. West Bengal is one state in India, for instance, where you cannot even dream of having a dalit chief minister. In contrast, in south India, the whole thing has opened up. So much new energy has been released. But has Bengal produced an AR Rahman? Or his guru, Illayaraja? Genius flowering from the bottom of society. Such release of energy from the non-brahminic castes has absolutely no parallel in Bengal. " |
| Nov 01, 2010 07:43 AM 46 | --"At any rate, you cannot equate battles from within, between Indic kingdoms and with Indic motives, with the mass killing and mass vandalism of the Islamic invaders. " So Hindus killing Hindus doesnt count ! Classic Sanghism. Im guessing you have readily available evidence by Togadia-approved historians that can back up the 80 million claim. |
| Nov 01, 2010 08:44 AM 47 | --"That's no argument at all." ... ok. --"Nandy acts like some pompous, arrogant know-it-all, thinking he is far superior to the average middle class Indian." ... and this is your argument ?!!! |
| Nov 01, 2010 09:07 AM 48 | Hindus fighting against Hindus in inter-monarchical wars,cannot be equated with the horrific Islamic invasions which killed everyone, including civilians in large numbers. And the vandalism Moslem invaders indulged in was unprecedented. Similarly, Aztecs killing Aztecs in pre-Spanish South America, bad as it probably was, cannot be equated to the genocide of the conquistadors. |
| Nov 01, 2010 09:54 AM 49 | Arundhati joining hands with Jihadi elements like Geelani is pointer for the coming together of Evangelists and Jihadis to balkanise and finish India as a country.Arundhati,the Catholic will never write on the sufferings of Hindus in Christian majority states of north-east,nor will she write on the dirty means adopted by the missionaries to convert poor and gullible Hindus. |
| Nov 01, 2010 11:12 AM 50 | >>There is data to suggest that millions( possibly 300 million) people died as a result of the Hindu invasions and rule blah blah.. Such data can only be found in "The Manual For Conversion Of Fiction Into History by Disgraced Charlatans". Its a bestseller amongst losers, commies, anarchists and fifth columnists. |
| Nov 01, 2010 11:50 AM 51 | Varun, >> horrific Islamic invasions which killed everyone... Which Islamic invasions killed everyone? And which inter-Hindu wars were bloodless? The one at Kalinga? |
| Nov 01, 2010 11:54 AM 52 | >> Arundhati joining hands with Jihadi elements like Geelani is pointer for the coming together of Evangelists and Jihadis to balkanise and finish India as a country. Run Nagaraj run! The Christians and Jihadis are coming, the Christians and Jihadis are coming! |
| Nov 01, 2010 12:17 PM 53 | Ms.Arundhati Roy in her statement says that what she had said at recent public meeting in Kashmir is what millions of people say every day.It is a fact that millions of people in kashmir are dissatisfied with the Govt of India for its failure to bring peace to the region.But, it has not deterred them from participating in the democratic process of our country.Time and again they had proved it by participating in the elections held in Kashmir.She should have considered this while giving her speech. Ms.Roy also goes on to say that the people of Kashmir had lost hope that they could get "INSAF" from India and AZAADI is their only hope. If Ms.Roy subscribes to the feeling that freedom is the only hope for the dissatisfied Kashmiri Indians, then there are more Indians in other parts who are also dissatisfied with the Govt at the centre, who feel the same way.If freedom is to be given to all these dissatisfied indians, then India has to be broken up into number of pieces which cannot be counted. All the states of India were ruled by different kings before we attained freedom and united under one nationhood in August 1947.If the same logic is extended to other states that it was not a part of integral India, it will definitely pave way for further break up of our country. Those who oppose Ms.Roy's speech base their argument on this premise. Ms.Roy is well read, intellect and widely acclaimed for her views on Human Rights. She derives her right to speech from the constitution of our country. She has to be more careful in expressing her views, which should not go against the basic structure of our constitution of a united India. |
| Nov 01, 2010 05:52 PM 54 | Police Stand on Roy in Accordance with Spirit of Law: PC New Delhi | Nov 01, 2010 PRINT SHARE COMMENTS "Home Minister P Chidambaram today said Delhi Police not filing a case against noted writer Arundhati Roy for her alleged seditious speech recently was in accordance with the letter and spirit of the law. "Section 124(A) of the IPC (related to sedition) is for deterrence and punishment. The spirit of the law and true interpretation of law is that unless there is direct incitement to violence, the state must show tolerance and forbearance. "Delhi Police is acting in accordance with the letter and spirit of the law," he said." Notably Mr. Chidamabaram who surely have no love lost for Arundhati in this short stataement spoke of 'letter & spirit' of the law at least three times. And Mr. B.G. Verghese who do not love Arundhati Roy- "It is just as well that the absurd pursuit of laying sedition charges against Arundhati Roy and Syed Ali Shah Geelani for saying in Delhi what they and a lot of others have been saying for a long time in J&K and elsewhere has been abandoned. To ask for azadi — if by that is meant independence — is not treason. And asking for it is not going to make it happen. Muzzling free speech, one of the cardinal pillars of an open and democratic society, would be to jeopardise our own freedom." The Mahila Morcha of the BJP has every right to go in a procession protesting what Arundhati said or wrote. They definitely broke the law when they broke things in her house. Do not forget that this mob is are of the same genre who demolished the Babri Masjid one of the most blatant act law breaking in open day light in independent India. |
| Nov 01, 2010 08:27 PM 55 | "Which Islamic invasions killed everyone? And which inter-Hindu wars were bloodless? The one at Kalinga?" It's really reaching to have to go back to 260 BCE to find an example of possible wanton bloodletting. Islamic warfare allowed for the mass killing of non-combatants, mass enslavement and mass executions of surrendered soldiers and civilians alike. It was very, very rare in Indic warfare. Of course, there were deaths and bloodletting, on the battlefield. Insofar as war per se is inhumane, yes, even those inter-Hindus battles were bad. But when compared to the mass killing, sadism and general ruthlessness of the Islamic invaders, and of inter-European warfare, India certainly comes out looking more civilised and humane. |
| Nov 01, 2010 08:45 PM 56 | >It's really reaching to have to go back to 260 BCE to find an example of possible wanton bloodletting That is disengenous of you, Barun Shekhar. Is it awakward to visit Gujarat of 2002 where there was not even an war. |
| Nov 01, 2010 08:55 PM 57 | Ashis Nandy comes across as the lone sane voice in this environment of bigotry and hate. One only needs to go through Outlook's forums to realize how power-crazy our new middle class has become. |
| Nov 01, 2010 08:58 PM 58 | Satyamev Jayate may well be our advertisement - but facing the truth is definitely not our national virtue. |
| Nov 01, 2010 09:12 PM 59 | > but facing the truth is definitely not our national virtue. When you face the truth , Varun Garde , you face Ahok Chavan, Dipak Kapoor , Vij, Kalmadi, A. Raja & who not. So better look at soft targets like Arundhait Roy. |
| Nov 01, 2010 09:13 PM 60 | Varun, >> It's really reaching to have to go back to 260 BCE to find an example of possible wanton bloodletting. What's the cut-off point? And what makes you think this was the only example of wanton bloodletting? The wars fought by the Guptas and the Cholas were innumerable. Were they just drills? |
| Nov 01, 2010 09:21 PM 61 | "but facing the truth is definitely not our national virtue." But what is exactly is this 'truth' as far as Kashmir goes? That India is an alien interloper, that has nothing to do with Kashmir, either now or through history; that all the Kashmiris- Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Christians, atheists and agnostics, are passionately against India and for Azadi?; that the movement is progressive, secular, democratic, inclusive and non-violent?; that Kashmir under India is exactly like India under Britain, or Algeria under France, or Angola under Portugal? A super-exploited, impoverished colony governed by a racist ideology akin to the white Euro-supremacy inherent in colonialism? Or perhaps a systematically colonised settler state a la the Han Chinese ruled Tibet, whites in South Africa, illegal settlers on the West Bank/Gaza strip, or the early British settlers in Australia? If this is indeed the 'truth', count me in as a supporter of Kashmiri aspirations. |
| Nov 01, 2010 09:23 PM 62 | "The wars fought by the Guptas and the Cholas were innumerable. Were they just drills" No, but they did not involve anywhere near the same amount of bloodletting, particularly where non-combatants are concerned. Nor the degree of cruelty, disruption, displacement and of course vandalism. |
| Nov 01, 2010 09:39 PM 63 | --"Islamic warfare allowed for the mass killing of non-combatants, mass enslavement and mass executions of surrendered soldiers and civilians alike. It was very, very rare in Indic warfare. " Once again (since Outlook 'moderated' my post), which eminent historian are you referring to while making these sweeping generalizations ? Sangh historians are famous for whitewashing Indian history. According to the Sangh historians, the 'golden age' of Hindu history in India lasted 3000 peaceful years with benign, bloodless wars, until the Islamic invaders came in and usurped Hindu rule ! --"But what is exactly is this 'truth' as far as Kashmir goes? That India is an alien interloper, that has nothing to do with Kashmir, either now or through history" Nope .. truth is we have 700,000 Indian troops in the Valley for more than a decade, crushing a generation of Kashmiris with the weight of their jackboots. Disappearances are common, murder and rape are rampant and alienation of the common Kashmiri to our very special brand of 'democracy' is very real and alive. But who cares .. they are Muslims. |
| Nov 01, 2010 09:42 PM 64 | --"No, but they did not involve anywhere near the same amount of bloodletting, particularly where non-combatants are concerned. Nor the degree of cruelty, disruption, displacement and of course vandalism." This is classic Sangh propaganda. Nothing less. Hindus good, Muslims bad. There is no evidence to support these statements, but repeat it often enough and it becomes the truth (Rule #1 in Goebbels book). |
| Nov 01, 2010 09:50 PM 65 | "Nope .. truth is we have 700,000 Indian troops in the Valley for more than a decade, crushing a generation of Kashmiris with the weight of their jackboots. Disappearances are com" Why exactly are these supposed 700,000 troops there? Why are they not in Tamil Nadu or Kerala,easily arguably more different from the rest of India, than Kashmir is to the rest of India? |
| Nov 01, 2010 09:52 PM 66 | Varun, >> they did not involve anywhere near the same amount of bloodletting. Do you have the data to make such confident comparisions? |
| Nov 01, 2010 09:52 PM 67 | I think that in a free democracy, censorship of any kind is wrong. People must be charged with sedition only if they get involved in armed/violent activities against a popularly elected legitimate state. Having said that, I would advocate "restraint" for loose cannons like Arundhati Roy. As the famous quotation attributed to Voltaire goes "I may disagree with what you say but will defend to the death your right to say it". |
| Nov 01, 2010 09:56 PM 68 | "There is no evidence to support these statements, but repeat it often enough and it becomes the truth (Rule #1 in Goebbels book)." Yes, there is, including the actual contemporary eye-witnesses among Greeks, Chinese and the Moslems themselves! Ancient Indian kingdoms, like their namesakes the Amerindians of North and South America, did not fight wars to wipe out, super-exploit, convert or colonise peoples and territories. Wars were bloody tournaments to proclaim the ascendancy of one kingdom over another, an outlet for testosterone filled youth, a way of avenging some family slight or insult, a means of displaying prowess on the battlefield. Was this wonderful and noble? Hardly. But way above the motivation and behavior of the Moslems and Europeans in warfare. |
| Nov 01, 2010 10:26 PM 69 | --"Why exactly are these supposed 700,000 troops there?" Beats me. --"But way above the motivation and behavior of the Moslems and Europeans in warfare." Once again classic Sanghism. the 'we killed too but they killed worse' argument doesn't hold water anywhere. War doesn't discriminate. Is there a record of the victims of Hindu wars ? --"Ancient Indian kingdoms, ..... did not fight wars to wipe out, super-exploit, convert or colonise peoples and territories." Instead they just destroyed each others kingdoms and enslaved their peoples. Subjugation was the name of the game. Your obsession with the Sanghs singular focus on conversions deeply colors your understanding of history. Besides, this has nothing to do with censorship in modern Indian media but dont let that stop you from digressing. |
| Nov 01, 2010 11:59 PM 70 | "Once again classic Sanghism. the 'we killed too but they killed worse' argument doesn't hold water anywhere. War doesn't discriminate" It would have been wonderful if not a single person was killed for any reason or under any circumstances( within reason) in India or anywhere else in the world. But that is grossly Utopian. So it is fair and right to point out that the wars in ancient India, bad as some of them were, cannot be compared in extent, degree and motivation/ideology as the wars Moslems and Europeans inflicted on each other and on other peoples, Indians included. |
| Nov 02, 2010 12:03 AM 71 | "-"Why exactly are these supposed 700,000 troops there?" Beats me. " Here's a hint: they are not there for the thrill of it, but to counter an extremely aggressive and violent sub-nationalism that has a pronouncedly Islamist character, not totally unlike the movement for Pakistan or the Iranian Islamic revolution. But yes, containing differences too. The bottom line, though, is that Kashmir is no colony of India, but an integral part of India's democratic, pluralistic system. And India is not going to bow to an Islamist movement. |
| Nov 02, 2010 02:10 AM 72 | Hyperbole is fun. |
| Nov 02, 2010 02:16 AM 73 | --"So it is fair and right to point out that the wars in ancient India, bad as some of them were, cannot be compared in extent, degree and motivation/ideology as the wars Moslems and Europeans inflicted on each other and on other peoples, Indians included." Its neither fair nor right. You are generalizing 3000 years of World History in a span of two sentences based on 'feeling'. Its trite, incorrect and blatantly false. Besides, this forum is about The Great Indian Love Affair With Censorship !! |
| Nov 02, 2010 02:49 AM 74 | Look at the picture of the garbage lady and some total ditto heads. They are like Nazis following Hitler saluting "Hail Hitler". This idiots don't know, don't think, don't question. Whatever the loony left writer says, the follow "Hail Roy". This guy bring ou all his venom into this article. >> It is the hearts and minds of the new middle class—those who have come up in the last two decades from almost nowhere and are middle class by virtue of having money rather than middle-class values—that both parties are after. Oh! Lord Supreme! The upper class and intellectually significant higher being! Please advise us! We are lower humans on your and Arundhati's level of thinking. We beg you! Pardon us! Pardon us! Should we all sit at your and madam's feet and read Das Capital? Will that make us worthy in your valuable eyes? >>This new middle class wants to give meaning to their hollow life through a violent, nineteenth-century version Oh no! Our hollow, pathetic lives are worthless comapred to intellectually superior, God gifted intelligence of your and madam's. Please spare us a thought, throw some enlightened words and we will also put our hands as in the picture above and sing "Hail Madam". >> of European-style 'nationalism'. They want to prove—to others as well as to themselves—that they have a stake in the system, that they have arrived. Sorry! Pardon us! Forgive us! We all want to show we have arrived. How dare we try to speak up our opinion? How dare? We all should be shot to death with the help of Maoists, Islamists, Pakis and Chienese. We deserved to be raped, burned alive and killed with your intellectually superior madam raising the forces of Paki terrorists (God Bless them! Amen!) and Chinese army. >> We are proud of our democracy—the consensus on democracy still survives in India—but unaware of a crucial paradox in which we are caught. The democratic process has created a new middle class, a large section of which is not adequately socialised to democratic norms in sectors not vital to the survival of democratic politics but vital to creativity and innovativeness in an open society. Spare us! Kill us! You are the lord! Rape us! Burn us! We all deserve it! We deserve it! Tell us where we should all jump! We will! |
| Nov 02, 2010 03:13 AM 75 | --"Tell us where we should all jump! We will!" Really ?!! Ok ... so walk down to the edge of the cliff ... |
| Nov 02, 2010 03:16 AM 76 | But what is exactly is this 'truth' as far as Kashmir goes? That India is an alien interloper, that has nothing to do with Kashmir, either now or through history; that all the Kashmiris- Moslems, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, Christians, atheists and agnostics, are passionately against India and for Azadi?; that the movement is progressive, secular, democratic, inclusive and non-violent?; that Kashmir under India is exactly like India under Britain, or Algeria under France, or Angola under Portugal? A super-exploited, impoverished colony governed by a racist ideology akin to the white Euro-supremacy inherent in colonialism? Or perhaps a systematically colonised settler state a la the Han Chinese ruled Tibet, whites in South Africa, illegal settlers on the West Bank/Gaza strip, or the early British settlers in Australia? If this is indeed the 'truth', count me in as a supporter of Kashmiri aspirations. == Thats sounds familiar - Arnab Goswami? |
| Nov 02, 2010 03:49 AM 77 | Arundhati Roy's speeches/writings etc are nothing compared many critics of the state/establishment, found in many countries. There is a growing section of people in our country who are beginning to take pride in intolerance. |
| Nov 02, 2010 04:02 AM 78 | >> "Patriotism," Samuel Johnson said nearly 250 years ago, "is the last refuge of a scoundrel." I would slightly modify Samuel Johnson's statement to say that if one pits Patriotism against humanism or does not consider humanism as an essential component of genuine Patriotism, such is indeed the last refuge if a scoundrel. |
| Nov 02, 2010 05:26 AM 79 | Varun, Is continuous bleating about our superiority a good thing? |
| Nov 02, 2010 05:33 AM 80 | Is continuous bleating about victimisation a good thing? |
| Nov 02, 2010 09:02 AM 81 | "Thats sounds familiar - Arnab Goswami? Varun Garde" I haven't seen Arnab Goswami's assessment of the Kashmir movement, but if indeed my description is similar, what is so wrong with it( the description, that is). And what is the alternative way of looking at Kashmir's 'Azadi struggle'? Is it really a secular, pluralist, progressive, non-violent, anti-colonial movement, similar to the movements to end colonialism in Asia and Africa in the last century? In what way? |
| Nov 02, 2010 09:05 AM 82 | "Oh! Lord Supreme! The upper class and intellectually significant higher being! Please advise us! We are lower humans on your and Arundhati's level of thinking. We beg you! Pardon us! Pardon u" Excellent, Vivek. Ashish Nandy does sound like he deeply resents the new middle class, and desires the return of the good old days, when people like him were considered mini-Gods. |
| Nov 02, 2010 09:09 AM 83 | "Varun, Is continuous bleating about our superiority a good thing?" You are not 'bleating' about India's 'superiority' or even equality. Rather, you are very enthusiastically defending the Moslem League in the pre-independence era, and the Kashmiri separatists in the current period. Anyway, it's long overdue for someone to forcefully assert the enlightened Indian position on Kashmir, and also acknowledge that India suffered at the hands of invaders for 800 years. |
| Nov 02, 2010 10:58 AM 84 | Varun, >> You are not 'bleating' about India's 'superiority'. You are! I don't see people as superior and inferior. |
| Nov 02, 2010 11:01 AM 85 | >> Is continuous bleating about victimisation a good thing? That raises Tendulkar's IQ level to that of Drolia! |
| Nov 02, 2010 11:10 AM 86 | >> "Patriotism," Samuel Johnson said nearly 250 years ago, "is the last refuge of a scoundrel." Kumar: I would slightly modify Samuel Johnson's statement to say that if one pits Patriotism against humanism or does not consider humanism as an essential component of genuine Patriotism, such is indeed the last refuge if a scoundrel." This may be true. but if some scoundrels take refuge under pattriotism does not make all patriots scoundrels. But ALL unpatriotic scoundrels hide behind this quote, for sure... |
| Nov 02, 2010 12:21 PM 87 | --"That raises Tendulkar's IQ level to that of Drolia!" LOL ! Not so fast ... he is getting there real slow. --"Anyway, it's long overdue for someone to forcefully assert the enlightened Indian position on Kashmir, " Our enlightened position has resulted in 70,000 deaths in 10 years. Save the forceful assertions. How about reconciliation ? --"and also acknowledge that India suffered at the hands of invaders for 800 years" And the invaders destroyed our 3000 year long peaceful Utopia. This narrative is beginning to reek of stale yak butter. |
| Nov 02, 2010 06:07 PM 88 | It is the very unenlightened position of the Kashmiri Moslems and their backers across the borders that has resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people- civilians, soldiers, political workers( particularly of the National Conference) migrant workers, pilgrims to Amarnath and even foreign tourists i.e the Norwegian fellow who was beheaded by Al-Badr in 1995. The question is whether India should bow to such an horrendous movement. A few people believe it should, no matter what the consequences. Others feel it is worth upholding India's principles, ideology and sovereignty. |
| Nov 02, 2010 06:16 PM 89 | As if the likes of Arundhati Roy, and Ashish Nandi have elevated themnselves above the middle class society.They forget their so called intellectual speeches are read by none other than middle class. it is the liberal approach of middle class that they tolerate such people and let them earn their bread and butter. Their articles are do not matter much for riches and established. Middle class hame their world by their own labour and contribute. Hence their are entitled to jelously protect their heaven. |
| Nov 02, 2010 07:25 PM 90 | "And the invaders destroyed our 3000 year long peaceful Utopia. This narrative is beginning to reek of stale yak butter." Who said it was a peaceful utopia? The nature, motivation and ideology of warfare in ancient India was quite different. Just as it was different between the Amerindians of North and South America, and the European colonists. In neither case can you use the reality of internecine battles to justify or mitigate the heinous crimes of the invaders, both Moslem and European. |
| Nov 02, 2010 11:15 PM 91 | The censorship existent in India was written into the Constitution adopted in 1950 under the watch of leaders with eminently middle class origins, like Jawaharlal Nehru. So censorship began with Nehru, had its heyday under Indira, was relaxed by LK Advani following the Emergency, and brought back by Rajiv with a vengeance. This narrative is further complicated by attempts by foreign powers to influence discourse in India. For instance, upright Indians like JP Narayan are known to have been suckered by the CIA (ref The Cultural Cold War: The CIA and the World of Arts and Letters). It is then an oversimplification to attribute the current phenomenon to any shortcomings in the new middle class. And before we judge the politicians too harshly, they may have good reasons for censorship given that large portions of India is still illiterate and vulnerable to rabble rousing. |
| Nov 02, 2010 11:56 PM 92 | A. Nandy, Sorry and all, but please stop band wagoning. This leftist sob group is getting a little tiresome now. You have been charged by the police? Aaaah! The injustice!!! |
| Nov 03, 2010 12:07 AM 93 | On the bright side, the jhola wallas are whining like losers now. The bania/brahmin/chaddi/military complex is too strong for them, I suppose. |
| Nov 03, 2010 01:26 AM 94 | --"In neither case can you use the reality of internecine battles to justify or mitigate the heinous crimes of the invaders, both Moslem and European." Lets see ... 'internecine battles' were just a mere reality while the invaders were guilty of 'heinous crimes' !! And you decided this based on the latest edition of Indian History by Togadia et al, right ? |
| Nov 03, 2010 04:15 AM 95 | >> >> I would slightly modify Samuel Johnson's statement to say that if one pits Patriotism against humanism or does not consider humanism as an essential component of genuine Patriotism, such is indeed the last refuge if a scoundrel." >> This may be true. but if some scoundrels take refuge under pattriotism does not make all patriots scoundrels. But ALL unpatriotic scoundrels hide behind this quote, for sure... But those who stand for humanism, human rights, justice etc even if it means condemning what they see as wrong done by their country' govt. are not necessarily unpatriotic either (in the right sense of the term – they love their country and condemn what is wrong). A good/loving friend is one who can also boldly point out mistakes and not merely a yes-man. |
| Nov 03, 2010 05:56 AM 96 | It is quite amazing that so many people are making so many hue and cries on Arundhati's statement on Kashmir; where, as a matter of fact, "her alleged seditious speech is in accordance with the letter and spirit of the law" admits P Chidambaram, the Home Minister and one of the eminent lawyers of the country. And what is in accordance with the letter and spirit of the law can not be seditious. Then, what for all this hue and cry? Brothers! India is a democracy. It provides for freedom of speech. Every one is free to speak ones mind. But, no one does. At least Arundhati has that courage. She has yet again spoken her mind. Today, media is transforming its role: from reporting of news to manufacturing of news. It is true, more than true. And every body knows it. But no one dares say. Media has become almighty. It can do any thing, can go to any extent. What for? For its TRP! It is Arundhati who can speak. Please, keep it up Ms Roy ! |
| Nov 03, 2010 01:33 PM 97 | another article by jholawaala ... who wants middle class people to travel in a broken bus and fight with conductor for 5 paise change ... |
| Nov 03, 2010 06:43 PM 98 | "Lets see ... 'internecine battles' were just a mere reality while the invaders were guilty of 'heinous crimes' !! And you decided this based on the latest edition of Indian History by Togadia et al, right ?" I came to that estimation based on my own thinking and weighing of the historical evidence. Warfare in all cultures was not viewed in the same way, or undertaken with the same mentality. It was so for India vis-a-vis the invading Moslems and colonising Europeans. |
| Nov 03, 2010 07:48 PM 99 | Varun, >> I came to that estimation based on my own thinking and weighing of the historical evidence. Your impartiality is of course well known:-) |
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